[00:00:00] Zach Hammer: All right, so here is how we actually dive in do this and put this into practice. First off, there’s all sorts of different questions you can go into. I like to actually leverage AI to even generate this this content in the first place. to give folks like a kind of a well-rounded look at this.

[00:00:16] You could gather this information by doing research. You could go to places like, Amazon, Yelp, you could read book reviews. You could leverage that, pull it into documents and get AI to analyze and synthesize that to see what people like, what people don’t like. If you’re looking for information on what they care about in a brokerage or a team, you could go places where people are talking about that and figure out what the words are that are actually coming outta their mouths.

[00:00:37] That’s a great way to do this. But that can take maybe a bit more time and effort than most people have to deploy on this. And because AI is essentially trained on the entirety of the internet. Anything that you could access publicly, AI has likely got a piece of that in it and is some level of aware of that.

[00:00:55] These large language models you could actually do a bit of this research just by [00:01:00] trusting it on what it’s saying interacting with on some of this. So at a foundational level, that’s a great thing to note. So what I like to do, is I like to start into a thread.

[00:01:09] I’ve actually, at this point, I’ve got a prompt that I’ve developed, be able to flow through this process. And these are the essential aspects.

[00:01:15] First off, we’re gonna ask AI to serve almost like a life coach, where they really understand people’s goals and motivations, and deeply down it at the life level.

[00:01:25] And then it’s task is to actually build out that persona, focusing on the person the goals, the problems, the opportunities, and going through an analysis at all sorts of different facets from personal, family, spiritual, and professional. And so we’re gonna start first by getting AI to actually generate our basic persona.

[00:01:43] So Charlie had mentioned, coming into this, it is accurate. There are typically multiple types of avatars, right? you’re gonna have, a few different, you might have the young upstart, you might have the seasoned professional you might have, the people who are buying their first home, the [00:02:00] newlyweds, buying their first home.

[00:02:00] You might have older couple that’s downsizing, ’cause they’ve got, whole empty nester thing going on. So think through some of these different high level, avatars and start to put together, separate avatar and empathy map documents for each of them.

[00:02:15] At basic level, I’d start with whoever you are most going after at the forefront. And then you could take these and merge ’em together after the fact. First off, we’re gonna get AI to generate our basic details.

[00:02:26] And basic details are going to include a comprehensive list of their name, age, location, income level, education background, marital status as well as the spouse’s name, if they have a spouse. The the children, their names and ages their appearance. That’ll be important for a separate step. Hobbies, those kinds of ideas. We’re gonna get it to generate a list of things that really flesh out at a kind of a high level.

[00:02:52] Surface level I should say view as to who this person is. Now the appearance is important, not because it actually matters for any of the rest of [00:03:00] this, we could take that appearance description, that AI will output and literally throw that into something like Mid journey or some sort of AI art creator, have it give us back, a picture of a person that looks like that.

[00:03:10] And then in your documentation, you have a face to look at that’s this is the face of the person that you’re speaking to. I don’t know, I don’t know about you, Charlie, but for me personally, it does help to literally have a face to tie these things to do to think about who is this person, that I’m writing to, or that I’m creating marketing for.

[00:03:25] Does that help you too?

[00:03:26] Charlie Madison: It does. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve usually got, one of my good friends or one of my sphere is like the one person that I’m talking to in that head. And having that one image kind of puts all those labels together.

[00:03:39] Zach Hammer: Exactly. And so literally I’m starting off by saying, Hey, ChatGPT I want you to get me back a list of this. I’m putting together a customer avatar and empathy map, and I want you to generate an example of this type of person for me include all these details.

[00:03:53] And then once that looks good, you could keep iterating. You’d say, not quite like that. Change this, like this isn’t the person that I’m thinking of. [00:04:00] You can give it that feedback to say no, that’s not quite right. I’m looking for somebody more like this. Change these details and get it refined until it feels like this the person looking for.

[00:04:09] Sometimes you may have opinions on that, sometimes you may not. And that’s okay if you go into it it gives you something that right off the bat you’re like, yeah, that looks fine, then good run with that. If you have opinions and you want it to adapt it, feel free, after you’ve got those basic details, then you actually start going into.

[00:04:25] Really what I would call like the most important aspects of this. There’s two branches that you could go down. One is going down the branch of like, where you could find these people. that’s asking, I like to go through the senses hear, taste, touch, smell, see, and like I think about where they go with their feet, where are they physically present, where do they meet, do they associate, where do they hang out?

[00:04:45] I like to establish a list of those things less because it matters as much for, targeting your messaging and more because, it allows you to target like your ads this is where I could go to run an ad, or these are the conferences that I might attend in order to reach this [00:05:00] person.

[00:05:00] Or maybe I’m setting up interest based targeting on Facebook and I’m looking for ways to flesh out an audience, to gear in on the right people that is just that, becoming less important. But it is worthwhile for sake of thinking through all the different areas where can I reach these people?

[00:05:13] Where do they associate? And so that’s one area that you can go down. I actually, you can leverage AI for that, and I’d recommend it. And it’s worthwhile for doing an overall fleshed out, avatar and empathy map. But, diving into the empathy portions I think are the most important for actually gearing your marketing messaging to be more effective.

[00:05:30] So we’ll focus on that. What I like to do for this is I like to go through a few different key areas, key sections here. First off, I like to think about their goals and motivations, What are they running toward? What motivates them?

[00:05:42] They excited about? What are they heading? What are they wanting out of life? All of the positive things that they’re trying to go after. And then we’re gonna break those things down on all sorts of different levels, we’re gonna break ’em down on, what are they consciously aware of versus what is maybe something that’s true for them [00:06:00] that is part of their belief system, but they’re not conscious of it.

[00:06:02] We wanna know those things. That may not change much of our messaging, but it does impact it for sure. And we wanna know those things on all sorts of different levels from what do their goals look like on a personal level? What do they look like for a family level?

[00:06:15] What do they look like spiritually? What do they look like professionally? What do these things look like for them? The aspects of their character that matters there? So we’re looking things like life goals for that, life goals, motivations. What are the things that make him come alive?

[00:06:27] So we can leverage AI and literally ask those questions, say, like essentially what I do is after I get those details, this is what I threw into my prompt thread. Great. Now I’d like to develop a customer empathy map for this avatar. I’ll provide the section we’re filling out one question at a time.

[00:06:42] I’d like you to answer the questions exhaustively while still being clear. It’s succinct in your answers. Here’s our first section slash question. And then that’s where I went into goals and motivations and asked about life goals and asked it to break it down on, personal family and all that.

[00:06:55] So then we could start going into into really the problem areas,[00:07:00] or what I would call it, right? After we’ve got like these motivations in line and the problem areas are gonna be, the things that have held them back, right? What are they afraid of?

[00:07:09] What have they attempted and not succeeded at? How long have they been trying what’s the ramifications of the amount of time that this has taken? All of that, and again, for these elements, we’re looking at these things for, what are they afraid? All of these apply on those same levels.

[00:07:25] What are the problems that they faced in their personal life, in their family life, their spiritual life, in their professional life? what are the problems that they are experiencing on the surface what are those problems in terms of how they’re impacting the way that they feel, right?

[00:07:38] What are those problems that are maybe deal, hitting them more at a subconscious level? And we’re gonna go through all of these questions and literally just ask. For this person that we created, flesh these out for me. ChatGPT, give me these answers on their life goal or other problems on the impact of the problems, on the fears that they have, both conscious and unconscious.

[00:07:56] Both external and internal. And we wanna see how [00:08:00] those are impacting. We’re gonna ask about past attempts. What have they tried in the past? This one is especially relevant when you have a specific product service or something that you’re saying, I think this might be the solution.

[00:08:10] If you might leverage a customer empathy map and adjust it a bit to talk about past attempts very specifically in light of how they’re relevant to this offering, this service, this thing that you’re trying to sell. So, keep that in mind that the past attempts may not be as relevant dealing with more of that overview customer empathy map.

[00:08:27] The other thing in regards to past steps is gonna be the timing. How long have they been trying this? What are the impacts of that, what’s it cost them in terms of, money, relationships, motivation, energy, what is the impact of that?

[00:08:37] And then finally, next thing that we do, and this is like the last of the big areas, is that we look at, we have their goals and motivation. We have the problems, the things that are holding them back and how that makes them feel and what they’re afraid of, and all of that.

[00:08:50] Now we come to what I would call the promised land picture. And we talk about the transformation and we say, imagine a world where all of this is solved. They have their goals, they have their dreams, they have their [00:09:00] motivation.

[00:09:00] What does that transformation look like? What does life look like now that they’ve solved those problems and that, and dealt with those fears, they’ve overcome them and they’re on the other side. And that gives us a picture that ideal end result might look like and being able to paint that picture for them.

[00:09:15] That’s like the overall context here, and I’m really blowing through this quickly. I have all this documented, I have a whole thing that goes through each and every one of these questions in detail. But at a basic level, concept make sense for how you flow through and literally just question by question, you can ask AI and get answers back that are relevant to these, that help you flesh out a picture of who a person is.

[00:09:34] Does that concept make sense, Charlie?

[00:09:35] Charlie Madison: Yeah, I love that. What sticks out to me. I’ve never thought about of course it’s ChatGPT you can chat with it. So to actually set it up where you can do step by step, it reminds me a little bit of the story brand, but much deeper.

[00:09:49] And I love, finding their dreams on each individual thing and then finding all their pains and then what it looks like once they’ve got it. [00:10:00] It also, it just makes sense. Someone’s gonna pay one thing for a time management book. Someone’s gonna pay more for a time management for real estate agents, they’re gonna pay even more for time management, for real estate agents that do 30 to 40 deals a year and want to build a team right?

[00:10:16] The more specific it is, the more valuable it feels. So I love being able to get those specifics and.

[00:10:24] Zach Hammer: Yeah. And in the same way, like the reality is, we talk about this whole concept of work-life balance and thinking that they’re somehow separate, but they really aren’t. Right? Like we do what we do for work in order to achieve goals and dreams that are personal. And failures or struggles in business also show up in their personal life and failures and struggles in your personal life show up in business.

[00:10:44] And what we find is, if you’ve got like you mentioned, time management, right? So if you’ve got something that is focused on solving time management. That’s going to be impacting them professionally in certain ways. They’re gonna have fears about managing their time professionally in certain ways, but that’s also gonna show up in like their personal goals.

[00:10:59] [00:11:00] Is it is their failure to manage time costing them from being able to partake in the hobbies that they care about to spend time with the friends they’ve built relationships with, to spend time with their kids, to spend time with their wife, to to have the right emotional energy available when it’s time to spend time with their kids or their wife, et cetera.

[00:11:18] And so all of those things.

[00:11:19] Charlie Madison: You know the common problem where when they’re with the family, they’re guilty ’cause they’re thinking about work and when they’re at work they’re feeling guilty ’cause they’re thinking about the family. That’s a common time management problem.

[00:11:30] Zach Hammer: Exactly. Exactly. The point for going through and thinking of all these isn’t that it’s going to come up in every single thing that you write or every marketing piece that comes out, or it’s not that. The point is that you’re thinking through these impacts, for one thing to better understand this person and literally going through and doing this work will help you to better gear even what you’re offering to these realities of the person that you’re speaking to. But the other aspect is that you could take this.

[00:11:56] And I’ll show you in a second. We can leverage the output of all of this and [00:12:00] actually turn it into, a super distilled, concentrated summary, that could be pulled into anything else that you’re writing, anything else that you’re generating in order to get it modified, to appeal to those aspects that really matter in this case, that matter to this person about this thing.

[00:12:14] Anyway. And what was my point there? So my point is, like we’re doing this work, on the front end because then it allows us to distill it the smart way and then leverage that distilled information into something that makes every single thing that you put out more effective.

[00:12:29] And we could use AI in that process and we can use AI to automate most of it so that instead of just the, like the phrase to me, people are always trying to optimize for straight outta ChatGPT. They’re trying to optimize for that aspect, and honestly, most people need to be thinking about adapting their flows to be sequential, to be you do your first step and then you do refining steps, and when you do that, you get a lot better results.

[00:12:56] This is one of those kinds of refining steps. So you throw your first thing in, maybe your Facebook ad [00:13:00] generated, but then you’re gonna have a refining step to try and say, focus on this, emphasize this, make sure it’s geared toward this kind of person. And then that’s gonna take a generic ad and take it through the roof.

[00:13:09] And if you try and do it all in one prompt, sometimes it works, but a lot of the time it just makes things confusing. And you get something that’s trying to speak to points that don’t matter. Anyway, that’s the point of this. The point is that we’re capturing all of this into some sort of document.

[00:13:22] We’ll put it all into one cohesive document that has all this information. And then, this is the trick here. So are you aware of context, windows, token limits on AI? Are you familiar with that concept?

[00:13:34] Charlie Madison: I think it basically means that, it’s almost like short-term memory. Like it only knows so much, and then after that it starts forgetting. Is that sort of what it is?

[00:13:48] Zach Hammer: Exactly. Exactly. And at any given point, it depends on the AI that you’re working with and this is getting better and better the longer we go. One of the phrases in AI is that this is the worst it’s ever gonna be [00:14:00] ’cause it keeps improving.

[00:14:00] So to put this in perspective ChatGPT, like the free one that everybody could use. I think, if I recall I don’t remember for sure, but I think it has like a 4,000 to 8,000 window of memory. And this isn’t exact. It’s really loose and really not a good way to be precise with this. But if you basically replace tokens with words, that’s gonna get you close.

[00:14:26] If you’re trying to understand what does that mean practically? 4,000 words and when we’re talking about that as the window of what it’s able to understand, that means both what you’ve written and what it’s replied to. So, anything that’s in that window. So as soon as you’ve been in a thread for a really long time, and there’s more history in it than that token window, it’s forgotten all of the earlier stuff and only is aware of whatever is within that window.

[00:14:50] Okay. So approximately 4,000, token limit, that’s the standard ChatGPT, if I recall I might be off on my numbers here, but that’s okay when we get to the [00:15:00] most important one.

[00:15:01] When you pay for ChatGPT, I think you start getting access to to their 16,000 token limit. that’s a really big window. ChatGPT 4 is capable of doing a 32,000 character token limit. And to put that into context, you do an hour long transcription of a video, and it’s typically still well below that 32,000 token limit, right? So you could have, the AI can understand the entire context of you speaking for an hour and be able totalk about it, deal with it, remix it as if it had full 100% comprehension of everything that you’ve said, right?

[00:15:35] Like you read that as a thing, as a human, and understood literally everything and can hold it in your short term memory.

[00:15:41] Now, most impressive one is one called Claude. Have you played with Claude at all yet? Charlie? Have you played with Claude?

[00:15:49] Charlie Madison: I’ve signed up for the beta because isn’t there like a, is it a hundred thousand token, something like that? Or Am I making that up?

[00:15:58]

[00:15:58] Zach Hammer: Yeah, [00:16:00] no that’s exactly right. So Claude has a hundred thousand token window of what it could understand context on, to put that into perspective, that’s like being able to read the entirety of the Great Gatsby and understand it as as if you had perfect comprehension of every word of the book.

[00:16:17] And still being able to write things about it, like intelligently, like still having enough memory to be able to write about it. That starts getting us into the context window that most humans don’t actually even have, if that makes sense in terms of one given point, taking in a piece of information quickly understanding it that well.

[00:16:34] So all that is to say, what I love to do is I love to use ChatGPT and GPT 4 to generate all of the answers to the questions because the way that it understands information, the way that it reacts to information is really good. Like it’s trained really well to be able to give you good outputs for these types of questions. When you give it enough context and you’ve got enough of a memory window that it could do that well, I then take everything that I generated.

[00:16:57] I take that and I put that in the Claude, [00:17:00] and I tell Claude to give me a summarized version of it. And so now most of these AI’s, when you give it context to operate off of work amazingly even at a basic level, they may not generate it’s called zero shot when you do the zero shot generations Claude may not be as good on everything as GPT 4 is.

[00:17:18] But If you give it a bunch of context and then ask it questions. Most of these AI’s, whether it’s the free version of ChatGPT whether it’s GPT 4, whether it’s Claude, they’re usually pretty good if you could give them that context.

[00:17:30] And Claude with its a 100K window, you could put in this entire massive customer empathy map, and you could have it give you back like a synthesized version. That’s all the key distilled details. Shortened down, made more succinct, and you could read through it and see is it missing anything? You could ask, you could tell it like, Hey, go into a little bit more detail here et cetera.

[00:17:51] I like to take that. And then further I get that refined down into a level where literally with with the paid versions of ChatGPT at this point, you can use [00:18:00] custom instructions. And the custom instructions allow you to have, constantly present information where ChatGPT is aware of what you’re asking it to do and context about who you want it to be talking to.

[00:18:12] And so I’ll give it two things in there. One, I’ll have it generate 500 to 725 characters worth of a summary of my customer empathy map for this is who I’m talking to and some of the things that matter to them. The other thing that I give it is I give it information about my company say, this is who I am.

[00:18:29] What I offer and how I do it. And so I have those things in the, what it needs to know about me, and then in the I want it to respond. That’s where I give it instructions, which is typically my mega prompt framework at this point is what I throw in there. I throw that in there and so then in the actual chat, constantly has available.

[00:18:45] You know who we’re talking to, who’s doing the talking, what we wanna accomplish. And that’s present in every single message, even when you start getting into really big token token requirements, et cetera. Then what do you do with all this? So like we get our customer empathy map.

[00:18:58] We get our summarized version, we leverage [00:19:00] Claude to take this massive thing, turn it into cool summary that we could then deploy with AI. The way that you leverage it is you do exactly whatever else you’re doing. Your writing your descriptions you’re creating your copy, you’re creating your emails, you’re creating your blog post.

[00:19:12] You’re doing what, anything else that you’re doing, you simply give it the summary or you give it, depending on the context, you can give it more. You give it less, depending on what you need to do based on character limits and all that.

[00:19:23] You give it that, you say, okay, all I want you to do is I would just want you to make sure that it’s appealing this person.

[00:19:29] And it just puts this minor bit of polish on it where it’s you’re gonna be able to achieve this so you have more time with your family so that you have these things that and like it’s just this minor bit of polish where it’s man, I could see how that so clearly hits that person drastically better than what I was trying to say before where I was just talking about leads and wasn’t talking about applying it to recruiting or I wasn’t talking about how it like impacts my ability to retain or all of those things.

[00:19:56] Anyway, and so that’s the concept for how we could leverage AI. And again, [00:20:00] this process, you were to go through and try and do all this research on your own, like you might try write out these ideas and you might have a decent understanding and you might be able to go through and read enough stuff and get enough understanding to be able to write this out.

[00:20:13] But it would take so long to do it and do it effectively.

[00:20:17] Charlie Madison: These are the types of things that, I looked into it before, like you would have to pay five to six figures for a good company to compile this for you. Or even, there’s books out there with kind of generic avatars.

[00:20:30] You still have to pay a lot just to get all of that. And so to have that here is . It’s unimaginable. If you hire a copywriter, the copywriter is either already going to know this avatar or a lot of the what you pay them, it’s going to be building this avatar in their head.

[00:20:51] Zach Hammer: Exactly. And yeah, so no matter where you’re going, when it comes to the marketing that you’re doing, being able to leverage this type of documentation and being quickly [00:21:00] able to rightsize the level of it, depending on the use case, right?

[00:21:04] If you want to go in and really put yourself in the shoes of your target market. It’s good to literally put together the massive one and read through it and understand it and feel what they feel right and see what might be important to them and start to put yourself in their shoes. You probably can’t give that much context into the AI memory window and have success all the time.

[00:21:27] And so getting a summarized version that you could say, okay, I understand this. I need AI to be able to really quickly adapt these things based on these ideas and find those patterns, find those connections based on what’s going on here, being able to make the connection of, I’m talking about, like, I’m talking about how our company offers this really cool lead generation service.

[00:21:47] Why does that matter to the agents that I’m looking to attract? What is it about that matters? And you could give it like these examples of the different people that you’re trying to reach. And it tends to be like, it doesn’t take what it generates and [00:22:00] then make it completely different.

[00:22:01] It’s not generally, it’s very often it takes what it generated then massages it a bit where you could see, it intersperses some of those ideas and some of those words that you could see oh yeah, like it just Minorly shifted it, but that minor shifting is exactly like what you just described.

[00:22:15] Which am I more likely to buy a book on time management or, the book on time management that is geared toward fathers with five kids, a wife traveling the country in an RV that works remotely and has a business geared toward attractive real estate professionals.

[00:22:31] Which, what am I gonna buy? I’m gonna buy the one that speaks to me and the things that obviously show that to me, and it’s not always the service level things like spousal relationships that actually show up in the ads, like the kinds of reasons or the kinds of things that motivate somebody like me be somewhat consistent show up in like the products that matter to me the impact that they’re making, the way that they offer me lifestyle, like those kinds of things.

[00:22:54] And so that’s what it helps us do, is it, we do a fair bit of work on the front end. Drastically less [00:23:00] work than it used to take, but a fair bit of work on the front end, we build out this customer avatar map and then we could take that and everything else that we do, we can just turn that dial up on the conversion rate.

[00:23:11] We could turn the dial down on the costs because everything connects so much better, so much quicker. And we literally are connecting with people at this subconscious level where they may not even understand some of these things are important to them, but we’re still appealing to it.

[00:23:28] They may not consciously ever tell you that they want to be the number one agent at the office because this thing in their past where, you know, they were always held back and this becomes like this important thing to them. But go ahead.

[00:23:41] Charlie Madison: I was gonna say, but because their father-in-law said that they’d never amount to anything and they wanna show, like you just never know. Stuff like that.

[00:23:47] Zach Hammer: Exactly, and that, those kinds of insights, those kinds of things, when you’re going through this process and really building it around a specific person, like you can develop those kinds of insights where it shows up. You may [00:24:00] not directly say in your ad like, prove your father-in-law wrong.

[00:24:02] Sign up for this . You may not ever directly say that, but it’s pretty good at being able to appeal to those aspects of a person, in a subtle way when you give it the context to be able to do so that’s the that’s the idea here. If you guys want to take advantage of this concept, of this process, I don’t actually know if I’m going to be providing everything that I put together in a In a direct thing, but hey, your best chance of potentially being able to get it is to reach out to me and ask to get connected in the Real Estate Growth Hackers community, and see what we’re putting out.

[00:24:33] See what information is available. Hopefully this episode itself was helpful for you. Any, any final thoughts for people to leave with and take this and put it into action, Charlie?

[00:24:41] Charlie Madison: Yes. . Reach out to Zach because I want this as a document. It reminds me of a couple episodes back when we had the Midjourney the image generator. Again, I want that. And like you said, this is the type of stuff that you pay six figures and 15% [00:25:00] royalties too for great copywriters, and to have that to be specific , and have the right person respond.

[00:25:08] I could see, if you’re wanting to recruit realtors, let’s say you end up getting five archetypes you can run all five ads at once. One, the systems themselves know which to show two, but then, the realtor will ignore four, but see the one and be like, wow. So to be able to have that at your fingertips is so powerful. I’ve done this, I’ve gone through StoryBrand. This is deeper than what I’ve done, and I’ve had really good results.

[00:25:40] I had a friend, he paid a big media company to run an ad for ’em, and they created, this this generic TV ad. And I had actually created a buyer persona for him. And since I had the buyer persona, I was like let me see what I can do. I created a TV ad for him, it was literally like three minutes [00:26:00] because I already had this persona. I was like, write a ad, da dah. And I sent it to ’em and they were just like, like it blown away. So like the work up front, you’ve got so much opportunity now. It’s just amazing.

[00:26:14] Zach Hammer: Absolutely. So here you go, and it’s a funny thing. I don’t say this stuff to be coy. I am producing a lot of this information and setting it up. Obviously I am in business to be able to make a difference, both for the people that I serve, but also to be able to put food on my table.

[00:26:29] I don’t know what people want. I don’t know what people want me to offer. And so unless I hear from people like, Hey, yes, I would love this. Please put it out as a product. Please offer this in some way. What way can I get this from you? I literally don’t know. What I should be producing.

[00:26:42] So part of why I’m doing this content is to share how I’m exploring down this path of AI, and especially how it applies to the real estate world, what I’m doing to get results for clients and what we’re doing that’s working. And hopefully it’s helpful for you. And then in that vein, I’ll start figuring out what What [00:27:00] specifically I might be offering for people to buy, for people to get free access to.

[00:27:04] And we’ll figure it out from there. But in the meantime there should be lots of good free content coming through on this podcast, on this show that you could dive into and learn from. I’ll tell you what, if you listen to what I said, you actually put it into action. Regardless of whether or not you have my prompts, you’ll be better off than those that don’t take action.

[00:27:20] But if you want it to be a little bit shorter and simpler, reach out and let’s see what I might be able to do to help you. There you go. Again, I got Charlie Madison here with me from referrals while you sleep, and a realtor waiting list. If you are looking for help, either as a lender or as a real estate agent, you want some really cool marketing to be able to put those things together, definitely reach out to him.

[00:27:39] He is got some good stuff. I have been Zach Hammer with Real Estate Growth Hackers, and yeah, until the next time, we’ll catch you on the next one.

[00:27:46] Charlie Madison: Bye.